This nails something I've been trying to articulate for months. The moment we put a price tag on showing up, we've already shifted from building relationships to performing transactions. I've seen book clubs morph into networking events once fees enter the picture, and the energyis just diff. People start calculating ROI on their attendance rather than just being present.
Ooooh I'm so torn on this. Sometimes the nominal fee, while not actually helping someone make a living, helps the event itself exist. Like with the event that I hosted, I provided no formal instruction and very little guidance, but all the money from ticket sales went to the venue rental and supplies, and I was still at a net loss of about $200 after all was said and done.
Charging for virtual writing circles/accountability is so tricky. Virtual writing communities seem to really work for some people -- it's about a 5/10 for me. I no longer wish to pay for virtual writing classes or accountability groups because it's just not worth it for me personally.
But I get that what you're talking about isn't individual preference, it's the normalization and expectation of charging money for the basic human right to community. And, of course, that's a byproduct of the stage of capitalism we're in, which refuses to let anything free and cool exist. I think one solution is for amazing people like you to keep hosting free community events that have deep, inherent value to both the hosts and the attendees.
Sidenote, I've never heard of scratchboard art either and it seems so cool!
Thank you for sharing this!! I think there’s nuance to just about anything and it’s helpful to hear about other people’s thoughts/experiences. In my opinion (which tbf that’s all this technically is) the event you hosted is a little unique in that you DID supply art supplies and you had to pay upfront for the venue. I think in a situation like that it’s fair to ask people to share the cost when the intent isn’t to take advantage of that sharing spirit by overcharging (which you obviously didn’t do, since you ended up paying a good chunk yourself). But in the case of Facebook groups or Zoom calls or church basements or whatever, when no material supplies are being provided and the venue doesn’t cost anything, I struggle to believe people are charging in good faith (especially when no one’s providing an actual service, like my post mentioned).
I think that’s why I have an easier time paying an entry fee for something like a wine tasting or an art workshop or whatever - I’m helping someone recoup the cost of an actual product.
I truly bristle at the idea of paying for community. When you're paying for that privilege, it's not community, it's a country club. I see people justifying it as the cost of admin to run whatever group or internet space or book club (we have a cafe here that caters to book clubs, but the clubs have to pay to use their space). But clearly there's a profit margin that is being met on top of those base costs. And that no one sees the power dynamic there is really some magical thinking.
Also, I LOVE East of Eden. Easily in my top 5 re-readable books.
"It's not community, it's a country club" 👏🏻👏🏻 really hits the nail on the head when it comes to the fact that by charging for entry to a community, you draw class lines.
Charging for admin would be okay if the coordinator were transparent about the gathering's true cost, but to your point, there's often someone pocketing some overhead just because they can.
East of Eden IS worth it! My girlfriend and I find ourselves talking about it at least once a week, and we read it over a year ago. Funny, strange, and thoughtful. And ambitious as fuck, in a way that's super exciting.
Thank you for this post! Agree -- creating a monetary barrier for entry for gathering places like this really also self-selects who is present in those spaces. Pay-to-play creative gatherings are so often stratified by class in this unspoken, weird way. These kinds of spaces also just aren't as rich creatively, as you point out. When we're paying for a writing group like it's a class, it becomes much closer to a networking gathering than a community one, a space supportive of a much more self-centered creative act than a collective one.
I feel this very hard. I sit on the board for a local community group with a community space, and I am constantly (CONSTANTLY) fighting with the board to make groups and activities for the community free. Not a $1, not $5 FREE. It's the whole purpose of the space and the society. Everything doesn't have to be free, but the community clubs and gatherings should 100% have no strings attached. I'm still fighting for it.
I admire you so much for that! Honestly, I feel like charging $1 for an event is even more ridiculous than charging $5. There’s no way they’re making a significant amount off of multiple $1 tickets and having to pay at all is inconvenient enough that some people just won’t go.
Exactly - this is the mentality I've been fighting. I'm not sure what the drive is to make this silly barrier to entry. Especially now, everybody uses debit, a lot of people don't carry cash, it's just a pain in the butt to do so they don't go. For some reason they seem to not actually want the space to be used for its purpose.
Thank you for this. I attendee a full moon gathering this past fall right after moving to a new city to meet some likeminded people. Aside from the full moon ritual, the evening featured all sorts of performers and had snacks and a tarot card reader available.
Yet I haven't returned to this monthly venue because aside from the entrance fee (much more than $5), snacks (junk food and flavored seltzers) cost additional money. Same for the tarot card reader. I am not ashamed to say that I swiped a cookie when no one was looking; the event was 3 hours long and occurred when most people would be interested in having dinner.
I felt so nickel-dimed from the "community" experience, there's no way I'll be back.
At least the open mic I go to that has a cover charge doesn't keep charging you once you're inside.
Ughhhh I hate when gatherings double-charge in this way. If entry got you snacks, a tarot reading, and whatever else the event had on offer, that'd be one thing, but to pay for entry AND each feature is ridiculous.
I'm with you, I tend to like coffee shop/bar events that are free to enter and you support the performers or venue by paying inside.
I organize a local bookclub. I don’t say host because each person takes turns choosing the book and hosting that month. We have monthly dues, $2-$5, but we do not care if someone can’t pay that month. Usually, another member has already donated more and offers to cover the other person. We save it up for our Christmas Party or if there’s a craft we want to do, we use it for supplies. So while yes, we technically have a fee to participate, no one is making money on it and it’s not a hard and fast rule.
I appreciate the distinction you’re making between recouping material costs and charging simply to gather, that feels intuitively important. I’m wondering, though, if the absence of a venue or supplies really means there are no shared costs.
In a lot of peer-run spaces (support groups, mutual-aid circles, community accountability groups), especially among strangers, the fragile resource isn’t the room but continuity: coordination, moderation, emotional holding, and preventing the same person from quietly becoming the permanent facilitator. Because those are hard to distribute informally, many groups use small or sliding symbolic dues not as payment for access but as a commitment mechanism and a way of collectivizing responsibility. Dean Spade describes similar practices in mutual aid organizing, contribution functions less as buying community than stabilizing it over time … so I’m curious whether the issue is charging per se, or charging in a way that frames others as customers. A fee can commodify belonging, but it can also mark shared stewardship: not “pay me to spend time with you,” but “we’re all responsible for keeping this space alive.” ( even immaterially). The tricky part seems less the presence of money than what social relationship the payment establishes. Thank you so much, looking forward to more substacks by you!!!
Many places I frequent accept donations, but clearly specify that no one will be turned away for lack of funds. I think this is a good solution, since I’ve been happy to donate when I’m able as a way to show my appreciation of those who do the hard work of organizing such spaces, but money is never the focus.
Completely agree with everything here and have encountered this same kind of dynamic. I've also been to groups that are advertised as free groups (which is technically true) but it becomes clear it's really a way for their organizer to recruit for their paid-for service. This happened to me with a writing group and a language exchange group.
Another example is my neighborhood gathering. It used to be a potluck but then a new person who took over wants everyone to pay her for the food which she emphasizes is because meat is expensive. I didn't go because the whole thing felt off to me since the event never had a fee before and since I wouldn't be eating the meat yet there was no option for that on the invite. Also, the meat was hotdogs and the host is wealthy.
Growing up, our neighborhood block party used to function as a huge boisterous amazing pot luck. It was seriously THE BEST -- I looked forward to it my entire upbringing.
Apparently a few years back a new neighbor took over planning and did exactly what yours did, charging a fixed fee, largely to cover the cost of grilled meats.
My parents who still live there haven't gone since lol.
Re: fees for community. I think there are different levels here. For a gathering of friends to do something together, I can’t imagine something like a “fee”. Nor could I imagine that for a potluck where everybody pitches in already.
But for something that is, to a degree, a service that is open to the public and not underwritten by something else, a small fee to participate has its place to cover expenses-and everything is expensive now. I run some gatherings for a writing group and the number of free places to get together has fallen dramatically.
It can also act as a useful participation limiter-people only come if they’re willing to pay a little, which means there are fewer “oh I didnt read the book but wanted to stop by and see what this was about” lookie-loos who don’t meaningfully contribute to the conversation.
Re: East of Eden…I’ve read it multiple times and I think it’s probably one of the greatest works of American literature ever written. Well worth the 600 pages!
Re: East of Eden…I’ve read it multiple times and I think it’s probably one of the greatest works of American literature ever written. Well worth the 600 pages!
Late to this reading + comment party! Like so many others have said -- you've put words so well to something I've been feeling.
My own friend circle has a lot of musicians and DJs. We used to regularly get together every 2-3 months for big backyard/attic/apartment parties where a rotation of friends would play their music. About ~1 year ago, a few though decided to create a music "collective" (and registered it as a nonprofit, mind you...) where they now play at bars and small venues that proport to stand for community-building. The first few shows were donation-only...but now they're a mandatory cover every time, and a much different type of crowd gathering.
I can't help but feel sad, and then feel guilty. I want creatives to be comp'd for time + talent, to your point. But how this "collective" has evolved just bums me out. I don't want to pay to have to hang out with my own friends every other month.
This nails something I've been trying to articulate for months. The moment we put a price tag on showing up, we've already shifted from building relationships to performing transactions. I've seen book clubs morph into networking events once fees enter the picture, and the energyis just diff. People start calculating ROI on their attendance rather than just being present.
Ooooh I'm so torn on this. Sometimes the nominal fee, while not actually helping someone make a living, helps the event itself exist. Like with the event that I hosted, I provided no formal instruction and very little guidance, but all the money from ticket sales went to the venue rental and supplies, and I was still at a net loss of about $200 after all was said and done.
Charging for virtual writing circles/accountability is so tricky. Virtual writing communities seem to really work for some people -- it's about a 5/10 for me. I no longer wish to pay for virtual writing classes or accountability groups because it's just not worth it for me personally.
But I get that what you're talking about isn't individual preference, it's the normalization and expectation of charging money for the basic human right to community. And, of course, that's a byproduct of the stage of capitalism we're in, which refuses to let anything free and cool exist. I think one solution is for amazing people like you to keep hosting free community events that have deep, inherent value to both the hosts and the attendees.
Sidenote, I've never heard of scratchboard art either and it seems so cool!
Thank you for sharing this!! I think there’s nuance to just about anything and it’s helpful to hear about other people’s thoughts/experiences. In my opinion (which tbf that’s all this technically is) the event you hosted is a little unique in that you DID supply art supplies and you had to pay upfront for the venue. I think in a situation like that it’s fair to ask people to share the cost when the intent isn’t to take advantage of that sharing spirit by overcharging (which you obviously didn’t do, since you ended up paying a good chunk yourself). But in the case of Facebook groups or Zoom calls or church basements or whatever, when no material supplies are being provided and the venue doesn’t cost anything, I struggle to believe people are charging in good faith (especially when no one’s providing an actual service, like my post mentioned).
I think that’s why I have an easier time paying an entry fee for something like a wine tasting or an art workshop or whatever - I’m helping someone recoup the cost of an actual product.
I truly bristle at the idea of paying for community. When you're paying for that privilege, it's not community, it's a country club. I see people justifying it as the cost of admin to run whatever group or internet space or book club (we have a cafe here that caters to book clubs, but the clubs have to pay to use their space). But clearly there's a profit margin that is being met on top of those base costs. And that no one sees the power dynamic there is really some magical thinking.
Also, I LOVE East of Eden. Easily in my top 5 re-readable books.
"It's not community, it's a country club" 👏🏻👏🏻 really hits the nail on the head when it comes to the fact that by charging for entry to a community, you draw class lines.
Charging for admin would be okay if the coordinator were transparent about the gathering's true cost, but to your point, there's often someone pocketing some overhead just because they can.
East of Eden IS worth it! My girlfriend and I find ourselves talking about it at least once a week, and we read it over a year ago. Funny, strange, and thoughtful. And ambitious as fuck, in a way that's super exciting.
Thank you for this post! Agree -- creating a monetary barrier for entry for gathering places like this really also self-selects who is present in those spaces. Pay-to-play creative gatherings are so often stratified by class in this unspoken, weird way. These kinds of spaces also just aren't as rich creatively, as you point out. When we're paying for a writing group like it's a class, it becomes much closer to a networking gathering than a community one, a space supportive of a much more self-centered creative act than a collective one.
Omg, what an amazing testimonial! You and Lori have me convinced :D
Yeah, the class divide really grosses me out. You can't really call yourself a community if you're excluding people who can't pay.
I feel this very hard. I sit on the board for a local community group with a community space, and I am constantly (CONSTANTLY) fighting with the board to make groups and activities for the community free. Not a $1, not $5 FREE. It's the whole purpose of the space and the society. Everything doesn't have to be free, but the community clubs and gatherings should 100% have no strings attached. I'm still fighting for it.
I admire you so much for that! Honestly, I feel like charging $1 for an event is even more ridiculous than charging $5. There’s no way they’re making a significant amount off of multiple $1 tickets and having to pay at all is inconvenient enough that some people just won’t go.
Exactly - this is the mentality I've been fighting. I'm not sure what the drive is to make this silly barrier to entry. Especially now, everybody uses debit, a lot of people don't carry cash, it's just a pain in the butt to do so they don't go. For some reason they seem to not actually want the space to be used for its purpose.
Thank you for this. I attendee a full moon gathering this past fall right after moving to a new city to meet some likeminded people. Aside from the full moon ritual, the evening featured all sorts of performers and had snacks and a tarot card reader available.
Yet I haven't returned to this monthly venue because aside from the entrance fee (much more than $5), snacks (junk food and flavored seltzers) cost additional money. Same for the tarot card reader. I am not ashamed to say that I swiped a cookie when no one was looking; the event was 3 hours long and occurred when most people would be interested in having dinner.
I felt so nickel-dimed from the "community" experience, there's no way I'll be back.
At least the open mic I go to that has a cover charge doesn't keep charging you once you're inside.
Ughhhh I hate when gatherings double-charge in this way. If entry got you snacks, a tarot reading, and whatever else the event had on offer, that'd be one thing, but to pay for entry AND each feature is ridiculous.
I'm with you, I tend to like coffee shop/bar events that are free to enter and you support the performers or venue by paying inside.
I organize a local bookclub. I don’t say host because each person takes turns choosing the book and hosting that month. We have monthly dues, $2-$5, but we do not care if someone can’t pay that month. Usually, another member has already donated more and offers to cover the other person. We save it up for our Christmas Party or if there’s a craft we want to do, we use it for supplies. So while yes, we technically have a fee to participate, no one is making money on it and it’s not a hard and fast rule.
I appreciate the distinction you’re making between recouping material costs and charging simply to gather, that feels intuitively important. I’m wondering, though, if the absence of a venue or supplies really means there are no shared costs.
In a lot of peer-run spaces (support groups, mutual-aid circles, community accountability groups), especially among strangers, the fragile resource isn’t the room but continuity: coordination, moderation, emotional holding, and preventing the same person from quietly becoming the permanent facilitator. Because those are hard to distribute informally, many groups use small or sliding symbolic dues not as payment for access but as a commitment mechanism and a way of collectivizing responsibility. Dean Spade describes similar practices in mutual aid organizing, contribution functions less as buying community than stabilizing it over time … so I’m curious whether the issue is charging per se, or charging in a way that frames others as customers. A fee can commodify belonging, but it can also mark shared stewardship: not “pay me to spend time with you,” but “we’re all responsible for keeping this space alive.” ( even immaterially). The tricky part seems less the presence of money than what social relationship the payment establishes. Thank you so much, looking forward to more substacks by you!!!
Many places I frequent accept donations, but clearly specify that no one will be turned away for lack of funds. I think this is a good solution, since I’ve been happy to donate when I’m able as a way to show my appreciation of those who do the hard work of organizing such spaces, but money is never the focus.
Completely agree with everything here and have encountered this same kind of dynamic. I've also been to groups that are advertised as free groups (which is technically true) but it becomes clear it's really a way for their organizer to recruit for their paid-for service. This happened to me with a writing group and a language exchange group.
Another example is my neighborhood gathering. It used to be a potluck but then a new person who took over wants everyone to pay her for the food which she emphasizes is because meat is expensive. I didn't go because the whole thing felt off to me since the event never had a fee before and since I wouldn't be eating the meat yet there was no option for that on the invite. Also, the meat was hotdogs and the host is wealthy.
Growing up, our neighborhood block party used to function as a huge boisterous amazing pot luck. It was seriously THE BEST -- I looked forward to it my entire upbringing.
Apparently a few years back a new neighbor took over planning and did exactly what yours did, charging a fixed fee, largely to cover the cost of grilled meats.
My parents who still live there haven't gone since lol.
Re: fees for community. I think there are different levels here. For a gathering of friends to do something together, I can’t imagine something like a “fee”. Nor could I imagine that for a potluck where everybody pitches in already.
But for something that is, to a degree, a service that is open to the public and not underwritten by something else, a small fee to participate has its place to cover expenses-and everything is expensive now. I run some gatherings for a writing group and the number of free places to get together has fallen dramatically.
It can also act as a useful participation limiter-people only come if they’re willing to pay a little, which means there are fewer “oh I didnt read the book but wanted to stop by and see what this was about” lookie-loos who don’t meaningfully contribute to the conversation.
Re: East of Eden…I’ve read it multiple times and I think it’s probably one of the greatest works of American literature ever written. Well worth the 600 pages!
Re: East of Eden…I’ve read it multiple times and I think it’s probably one of the greatest works of American literature ever written. Well worth the 600 pages!
Kudos for writing the thing that felt too controversial, I think you were clear and fair, I have some thoughts and I wanna write them out later
I totally agree. Community is something freely entered and exited and is built upon social and cultural capital, not financial.
Late to this reading + comment party! Like so many others have said -- you've put words so well to something I've been feeling.
My own friend circle has a lot of musicians and DJs. We used to regularly get together every 2-3 months for big backyard/attic/apartment parties where a rotation of friends would play their music. About ~1 year ago, a few though decided to create a music "collective" (and registered it as a nonprofit, mind you...) where they now play at bars and small venues that proport to stand for community-building. The first few shows were donation-only...but now they're a mandatory cover every time, and a much different type of crowd gathering.
I can't help but feel sad, and then feel guilty. I want creatives to be comp'd for time + talent, to your point. But how this "collective" has evolved just bums me out. I don't want to pay to have to hang out with my own friends every other month.